This is great, Rob. I’d love to have some wise words to add here, but this is one case in which I pretty much just agree totally.

I’ve fought in the past. I’ve won, and I’ve lost. It was never fun, safe, or anything to be proud of. I’m stronger now in many ways. And I make better choices. Hence, no more fighting.

Probably one of the best articles I’ve ever read on any karate website, and on defence generally.

A famous US firearms instructor, policeman, and defensive strategy trainer, Masaad Ayoob, send essentially the same message, even for armed off-duty cops and other armed professionals and civilians.

I believe Rob’s mindset is what Funakoshi was on about when he wrote about perfection of character.

The awareness of the other persons in your surroundings what living in condition yellow is all about. You may of course be subject to dangerous criminals coming your way and cornering you no matter how careful you are. Even then, your skill at escape and evasion and the juducious use of a tacticaL defensive weapon will better equip you for survival, and your skills in unarmed combat may only assist you to get to your handgun.
Bottom line: you can minimise chances of confrontation by living carefully.

“Karate is not self-defense. Karate is a tactical dueling system only.”

Not everyone practices karate as a ring-bound dueling system. I agree with your suggestions but this statement is not universal. No teaching or training system is perfect, but there are plenty of ways that people can and do train to address chaotic violence, not the algorithmic dueling style that you refer to.

Maybe number 4 might be too stressful over time?

-Jake Newton

Rob,

Do you avoid food shopping at night because you live in a rough neighbourhood where supermarket violence is normal?

Also, ‘Defensive living’ sounds rather boring to me. Obviously it’s not wise to hang around with the local smack dealers if you’re keen on keeping your looks, but not going to pubs (bars) or clubs? Is this really all due to fear of violence or is it mainly because, like me, you are just getting a bit old for the club scene?

Randy,

I can see why you would say that there are lots of ways to do karate, but really, there just aren’t. If you are putting two guys in a ring in your class, you’re not doing combat training. You’re not really doing combat training unless you are doing things that frankly I have never seen in any martial arts school. Combat training would unfortunately produce a private citizen who would need some serious therapy to get along in the civilian world.

So, yeah, a lot of guys do karate somewhat differently, but no, I don’t agree that doing escapes and practicing eye pokes that don’t contact or hitting a bag is really any more effective. Sorry.

-Rob

Jake,

Maybe. Doesn’t bother me. I am naturally that way. I have a hard time not doing it.

-Rob

Rik,

I do not live in a tough neighborhood. It is just an example. In fact, I intentionally live out in the country away from all of that. There is no crime where I live. However, in my previous locale, it was necessary to be vigilant about such things. If I were a more frail person, I would still be cautious of the other vehicles in the lot, etc.

As for giving up drinking establishments, I do not find getting drunk in a pub interesting even a little. I find it boring and would prefer to be accomplishing something – which is how I get so much done. So, I cannot identify with that. I can see that others would consider that a painful lifestyle choice to make. I cannot muster any sympathy, however, since that lifestyle is wasteful and self-destructive in my view.

Everyone must choose the risks they will take. I mountain bike. Karate isn’t exactly safe. I love camping and hiking where there are mountain lions and bears. So, we make our choices and we eat what we get.

It just seems stupid to talk about self-defense techniques and not talk about the obvious high risk of going to a place with the specific intention of lowering all of your defensive capability in a room full of others who will be lowering their inhibitions – some of whom will be powerful, aggressive, and hostile. I don’t mountain bike, do karate, hike, or camp drunk. I wouldn’t recommend being in that state in a place that was not safe.

-Rob

No boardwalk in NJ? Have you been watching too much Jersey Shore? I lived in a NJ city with a boardwalk for 22 years, and I have only ever seen one violent conflict on it, and it was between people who knew each other.

“If you are putting two guys in a ring in your class, you’re not doing combat training.”

Just seems like a very limiting/limited way to look at it. Not everyone does the JKA/sport inspired format. My point was that training can address a much broader variety of situations and ways to handle those situations than simple kumite or kata application does. I get the distinction between “combat” and “training for combat”- the vast majority of people don’t want to train in ways that will actually cause them injuries and psychological trauma from a “fight club” environment. The kind of person who wants to do that is not worth training with. The alternative is, as you suggested on another post, throwing in everything and the kitchen sink, taking it as far out of the box as people are able to, while admitting that it’s occasionally going to be uncomfortable, and still not going to be perfect.

In my experience, getting students comfortable with repeatedly hitting each other with escalating force, or slamming each other into the floor and choking each other with commitment at least gives them a limnal experience with violence. Introduce skills, refine them, explore how and when they fail. Use anatomical proxies to get used to trying to shove fingers into eyes or stomp on knees so people can experience the difficulty of doing this in a chaotic situation. Set up drills so that after a certain point, the attacker is actively trying to stuff the defender’s responses so karate training doesn’t become “magical thinking.” Be honest about the fact that karate is not at all special when compared to any other method or just raw fighting. Again, not perfect, but at least it resembles violence more closely than the 3 K’s or point sparring. If conflict avoidance fails, the student at least has familiarity with what it’s like to be hit, choked or knocked down and still have a good chance at keeping her wits enough to get out of it.

Chris, i found a sense of humor for you on ebay that’s currently bidding at $3.00 plus $1.25 shipping. Settle.

-Rob

Hi Randy

I am of the school of thought that thinks of karate as (1) a traditional budo activity (with all the arguable strengths and weaknesses of that approach and philosophy) and (2)a jutsu, a source of unarmed combat technique. I’m not particilarly impressed by sport karate, despite having being involved as a referee. The reason I am not impressed is based on Rob’s statement (amendeded here for broader application) “If you are putting two guys in a ring, you’re not doing combat training.”

As an anachronistic budo, karate is faced with the challenges of the access criminals have to firearms. As a developing jutsu, it can enable defence when there is no other alternative. In reality that means “when combat can no longer be avoided.” It does not mean, “when I’m tired of putiing up with the local yokel’s crap” in the nearby tavern.

I know where the dodgy parts of my city are, and I know what will consitute risky behaviour in terms of travel and interaction. I live in a country with (according to stats I found on Wikipedia, for whatever they are worth) the 6th highest murder rate in the world. An armed home invasion involving the death/crippling of a man and the rape of his wife, or the murder of isolated farmers is not an uncommon news item in South Africa, despite the spin put on the country’s PR before the soccer world cup. I need to understand the limits of karate. If I was living in gun-phobic Japan or the UK or most parts of Europe, I could rely more on unarmed combat and less on skill at arms.

I agree that karate class can be (and are) adapted for more realistic training. However: this is the difficulty for a karate class: many people come for the traditional “budo” side of things. If we turn it into a regular thumping session, the difference between karate and the lycra clad MMA types begins to blur.

Paul,

The difference between MMA and karate: I don’t see much of one, if you look past the relatively recent Japanese cultural notions attached to some of it. In both, people get together to learn fighting skills; they may or may not reflect the reality of violent assault, they may or may not be based on a tournament format, they may or may not involve intense contact and the rest, they may or may not emphasize a code of conduct, they may or may not emphasize traditions from various cultures or fighting arts. All of the budo talk is a way that karate gets insulated from the reality that there are only so many ways to train for violent behavior; if that’s the main concern, at some point training will end up looking an awful lot alike regardless of the school or style. How a group decides to focus it’s training dictates what that group does and what they look like. Karate is such a mutt that none of the mainstream definitions are very accurate, nor have they ever been. Budo vs. Jutsu is a relatively recent distinction from Japanese influence, but not universal. At the core of it is the concern with representing violence.

I whole heartedly agree that self defense involves much more than practicing Karate or a martial art, and that avoidance and awareness is true self preservation.

What I don’t agree with, is the view of martial arts as something meaningful only inside a dojo and their seeming ineffectiveness against anything practical.

Practicing kata and complex body movements like drills involving combinations of kicks, punches and blocks go a long way in making a person more aware of his body. The effects are not the same for everyone, but with sustained training, a practitioner does become more body-aware. Over time, it’s the same awareness that gives one the ability to fathom a person’s intentions by looking at his body language in a potentially violent situation.

Controlled sparring, taking hits and blows also does something for your confidence. The ability to stay calm, without giving in to the fear of a possible physical confrontation often goes a long way in resolving conflict. A person who panics or is visibly defensive in a potentially violent situation has more chances of being bullied or hurt.

I believe that martial arts training brings a lot of intangible benefits to a practitioner whose usefulness in real situations cannot be undermined.

Hey Randy

Interesting take on things there. However, I submit that evidence shows massive differences beteen the two. Those “may or may nots” that you mention are the evidence of the differences.

As for budo being insulated: of course a culturally motivated practice is insulated from reality to some extent. Many of the budo are based on anachronistic armed practices. However, the unarmed forms arguably have some application in modern unarmed situations.

Interestingly, all these unarmed budo seem to contain some extent of underlying philosophy of wise avoidance of combat where possible, which is where I beleive it links up with Rob’s article. I fact, I consider it possible that even Kano Jigoro, if alive today would appreciate this type of input from an educational perspective, if the historical accounts of his focus on education are true.

As for karate being a mutt, I’m not sure what you mean, although it does not sound complimentary. If karate is indeed a mutt, and creates mutts, I must admit to having been very impressed with the practical skills of many a mutt.

-Sat, I must therefore generally agree with your point of view. Rather some form of training than no training, at the very least.

Rob, excellent advice. Self-defense via common sense beats any martial art in efficiency.

I would, however, support the point that average person gain at least some benefit to self-defense efficiency from martial art training. At least it gives some physical fitness to run! Contact sparring is not bad at eliminating “shock and awe” effect, so occasional slap won’t freeze you for those extra second.

Of course, one would make gross mistake by believing that unarmed combat system is ultimate self-defense solution (damn movies). For law-abiding citizen, there are too many variables to make it (or handgun, or compact plasma burst emitter) anything but your last line of defense. A common thing in martial arts and self-defense is that avoidance is most of the time better option than direct clash. People often look puzzled and amused when I say that light, agile parkour practitioner is better at self-defense than sambo cross-trainer like me, but it is true.

Paul,

Mutt is only a negative if you decide that there is something more illustrious to claim. My point in calling krate a mutt is borne out by history: Ryukyu had several hundred years of intense cultural exchange with Siam immediately following the three kingdoms era(refer to Kerr for more on the extent of this); this exchange then shifted to being between Ryukyu and China following the empire’s investment in Ryukyu; indigenous Ryukyuan fighting practices arose and developed and commingled with those of China and very likely Siam, Indonesia and other trade partners; those practices were filtered through Japanese and Chinese cultural lenses as they developed into Ryukyuan traditions; following the Meiji annexation of the islands, Okinawans then began formatting karate specifically along the lines of influence from Kano et al; the Japanese take on karate diverged significantly enough to be regarded as a separate aesthetically bound pursuit; karate began to filter out to the world at large, taking on local aspects as it spread.
Every single person to teach any brand of karate has relied upon a foundation that cannot be accurately traced or delineated, and which encompasses a widely eclectic range of skills and traditions from undocumented sources.

If that’s not a mutt, I’m not sure what is. Karate is a mutt of it’s component influences. I am somewhat happy to be a development of the process; mutts are healthier and more resilient than pure breds.

The statement that the differences between MMA and karate are borne out by my use of the term “may or may not” is a non sequitir. For every single “unique” aspect of karate that can be pointed out, the exact same thing can be found in just about any other fighting practice, form boxing to MMA to Silat to Renaissance training manuals.

Hey Randy

Ok, now I get it. Mutt as in mongrel, a mixed breed of a somewhat hardy nature. Sure, karate’s past would point to that. Not a pejorative reference at all, in that context.

If I have drawn a conclusion that does not follow the evidence, in respect of the differences, perhaps we need to look at that. I think it is clear: Karate does, for example: (1)limit physical contact, (2)follow, to some degree or other at least in Shotokan, some teachings regarding a code of conduct, and (3) does emphasise some traditions from culture, in this case the Japanese culture.

These aspects are distinctly absent from MMA, so there are indeed distinct differences, whether they are raliatively recent or not. We cannot, surely simply overlook things that lend a characteristic to a practice? The Nippon Budokan seems regard karate as possibly it’s most popular(by way of numbers)Budo. (The Nippon Budokan records WKF international membership of over 40 million karateka.) The Japanese have always assimilated and given their own flavour – karate is no different. As a budo, it is distinct from MMA. Poles apart. MMA remains popular, but it is, in knowledge transfer method and (at least theoretically) philosophical purpose, a separate species of pugilistic practice.

OurShotokan mutt is being refined, year by year. Like Jack Russel terriers and Rhodesian ridgebacks, it has been accepted as a breed of it’s own.

Paul,

Woof.

And just for grins:
http://www.brmmasystem.com/gpage1.html

Randy

Woof,woof.

Grin

By the way, nice try there Mr Rutten, with the code of ethics effort. Just above the picture of a “ground and pound.”

Not to detract from his skills, however: I think this one of the scariest MMA people out there.

Also has an extensive Kyokushinkai background, which MMA commentators rarely mention.

Rob,

Your commentary sounds very much like something that the late Jeff Cooper might have said. His thoughts focused mostly on the use of firearms, but they are very similar to yours. See the Combat Mindset portion for the most relevant section.

Ryder

Might have been good to include the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

Ryder

I agree totally with what you’re saying here. No matter how competent a person is, regardless of how good you think karate is for winning a fight, it might not work. Getting in a fight means the risk you might lose. And getting in the fight is almost never necessary.

There is one thing not mentioned so far – confidence. Confidence is very important in avoiding fights. It’s a fine line between seeming cocky (which can provoke some people) and seeming insecure (which can invite bullying). The best attitude is laid-back confidence,knowing that you don’t need to fight and have nothing to prove but won’t let people take advantage of you either. Then people will avoid fighting with you on their own, without you even doing anything.

Outstanding article, Rob.

Great post! Wish I had realized the importance of this when I began teaching in the seventies/eighties.

Hey there Ryder

I agree on your thoughts regarding the late Jeff Cooper. Always gave sound advice. I miss “Cooper’s Corner.” Mas Ayoob, in the same vein, also a combat survival instructor, follows the same philosophy, with his own amendments.

Long live the 1911A1 single stack .45 ACP pistol!-(and keeping it holstered whilst you avoid getting in harm’s way…)

Rob,
Wise advice indeed.I have been in a few fight situations in my life,only one which ended up with an Ippon Sei Nage,from which my opponent did not get up until a long time after I’d made myself scarce.After a 20 year hiatus I started learning Shotokan,which I’ve been doing for the past 26 years (I’ll be 65 soon).I found that if your Zanshin is good,you NEVER have to fight.97% of people aren’t psychopaths.It’s if you come up against those 3% that your automatisms have to be refined enough to help.I’m only 5’4″ tall,but I’ve used the “Make my day” line against a 6’3″ guy,who’d seen the film (and I WAS very scared,but didn’t show it).He backed down,because my Zanshin in Han Mi Dachi was very convincing and i was very sober.

I don’t disagree with anything in the article, I’m just a little surprised it has been received by some as if it’s anything new? Semantics maybe, but Self-protection is a lifestyle choice, self-defense is something else which could be described as the various styles of combat being practiced today.

The one thing I would comment on:

“I can see why you would say that there are lots of ways to do karate, but really, there just aren’t”

Not in my experience. Sport competition karate? Maybe. But having practiced a variety of karate styles there are good, bad and downright criminal ways to practice.

Nothing wrong with any of them as long as you don’t kid yourself what you are practicing, why you are practicing, and what your real goal is by doing so.

Philip

I’m just curious, what is hanmi dachi? Hanmi is half front/facing and dachi is stance, as I understand it. How would you describe it?

I had a giggle picturing what sounds like a short chap shifting into a stance and saying “make my day.” Movie material indeed. With my luck I would run into someone who would give me a go…so I don’t.

If I get cornered, I’m going silent, upright and into eye gouge, throat chop, groin smash mode. But they will need to corner me first.

I agree in principle, however as i’ve said elsewhere, i have been in fights. I’m not violent, i’m not easily roused to anger (despite being Irish), and i’m pretty thick skinned, But I enjoy a drink out with friends. I go to reputable Pubs, i never go clubbing, but when you’re walking back home in the dark, you never know what might happen. I’m 5’10″, shaven headed, and built like a brick ____house, so surprisingly, i rarely get bothered one-on-one, so when you’re cornered, back to the wall, you sometimes have no choice but to fight (however i never fight odds of worse than 3-to-1. I see a fourth man, you wont see me for dust). I’ll try diplomacy, but if it’s not working, i wont waste time on it.
I don’t start fights, but if someones bothering my friends, then i’ll step in, say, “Hey buddy, why don’t you calm down, come over, have a drink, have a chat”. But im not naive. It doesnt always work. And alot of the time, we’ll walk away. But i’ve had people follow me, and i’m a protective person.

I practice karate as a meditation.

I practice my practical self-defence elsewhere.

This is one of the best fights I have ever seen. This guy really knows self defense.

[ Video removed. Content is not appropriate for all audiences. -Ed. ]

That’s brilliant

“Karate is not self-defense. Karate is a tactical dueling system only.”

Absolutely.

When you get down to it, this statement applies to most (perhaps all) martial arts. They are “dueling systems” often with something called “self-defense techniques” tacked on.

Hi,

Combat. Funny how we toss that word around as if using it somehow changes whatever art we practice into something different. As you say, karate (and most martial arts, at anything but a mastery level) is a tactical dueling system. Combat fighting it is not.

Combat is not just a word. Combat is down-and-dirty, anything goes, survival mode fighting. It matters not that you use a gun or your hands (and only a fool uses only his hands if ANYTHING else is at hand), combat is unique and primal. Exposure to it changes a person in ways that are not always good, and it leaves marks that affect the rest of your life…assuming you survive, which is not always a given and often merely a matter of dumb chance and luck.

That said, a quote from a Gunsite instructor is useful: “People think that when they face something, they will rise to the occasion. But we don’t rise to the occasion. We default to our level of training.” Basically, what you can do without thinking, you will do. This is why fundamentals are critical to return to again and again. Also, many more complex techniques require a certain level of participation from the adversary, and that can’t always be counted on. In that respect, whatever art you practice can give your animal brain tools to use while your skilled brain is sucking it’s thumb and gibbering like a baboon on crack.

Thankfully, combat is something few people ever experience whether they study martial arts or not. Despite the movies and bragging, precious few people ever experience enough combat to overcome natural responses. Even so-called ‘combat systems’ in the MA world cannot prepare a person for the experience in any substantive way. Because we train in a controlled environment that minimizes risks of injury, we’ll never be able to simulate the emotional effects of combat.

(I’m not sure I’m articulate enough to have said this right, but hopefully I’ve done well enough to make some kind of point.)

C